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To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.magick.sex,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.sex.wizards,alt.magick.tantra
From: catherine yronwode 
Subject: Re: Male ejaculation control
Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 20:55:29 GMT

nagasiva yronwode wrote:
> 
> Richard Boothe :
>
> > ...the Chinese say that a man is not ready to make love until
> > his penis is engorged, hard, and hot.
> 
> too often this results in rashness, anxiety, and a rushed
> approach that may not satisfy those not in similar condition.
> that is, these sources may be men unused to thinking of a
> variety of partners and their desires.

Yes, this information, exotically and anciently Chinese though it may
be, is of no practical use to real human males and females. It reeks of
what i jokingly call "religious pornography." In rebuttal to it, i can
unequivocally state that i used to have a great deal of pleasure with
(and gave reciprocal pleasure to) a man who had partial erectile
dysfunction due to diabetes and the taking of medicine to lower his
blood pressure. Our intimacy levels were high and we cared a great deal
for each other. So, i can say with the certainty of personal experience
that the ancient Chinese -- like so many others who promulgate lists of
"shoulds" and "should nots" in regard to sexual activity -- are just
wrong when they say that a man is "not ready" to make love until he has
managed to produce a red-hot, thusting rod of manly love-iron. That's
all. They're just wrong.  

> >The Tantric sequence for preparing both partners for intercourse,
> >is to first stimulate the woman's nipples and breasts - where a
> >light touch is often more stimulating than a heavy one - then up
> >both sides of the neck, to the ears, then to the mouth, down the
> >spine, to the thighs, the calves - making sure to massage their
> >base - and finally, the vulva.  You can repeat this sequence as
> >many times as is necessary to fully turn both of you on....

Thank God i am not reduced to making love with a robotically programmed
automaton-man who runs through such a sequence of "arousing"
manipulations on my body! Thank you, Jesus! Thank you! 
 
> this is overly simplistic, however useful. my understanding is
> that "preparation for intercourse" is a Neotantric equation of
> sex with tantra, and that the best preparation for sexuality
> is sincere romance, connection, intrigue, playfulness, and
> commonality. that is, it starts much earlier than physical
> manipulations.

Thank you!

> >Once you are ready, it's best to enter her slowly, stopping, at 
> >first, until you feel completely in control.  Then, maintaining 
> >that control, proceed no faster than is within your comfort level.  

This is good advice for men prone to premature ejaculation. An article
on the subject (written primarily by a man) can be found at my web site.
The URL is 
     http://www.luckymojo.com.tknorthaustin.html

> >Don't allow the female to control things.  You need not control 
> >her, just yourself.
> 
> why is there concern that you might be controlled by your partner?

Actually, i think this is a misreading of the Chinese texts that i have
seen -- they usually specify that once the man (the Dragon) has inserted
his penis (jade stalk) and has settled into a controlled "groove," as it
were, the woman (the Tiger) should be on top and control all movements. 

In karezza, the relative roles of men and women are not fixed. Each
author has his or her own opinion, since the entire field is
experiential and not based on religious or social dogma. Here is what
ONE karezza author, John William Lloyd, had to say about the subject of
"who is in control" -- and notice how he contradicted himself within the
same chapter!

     [Chapter 11] THE WOMAN'S PART IN KAREZZA

     The opinion prevails in Karezza that the man 
     does it all and the woman's part is negligible. 
     This error may have arisen in part from the 
     old name, "Male Continence," for the method. 
     ["Male Continence" refers to Rev. John Humphrey 
     Noyes' 1844 booklet on semen retention; it does 
     not refer to male celibacy. -- cat]

     ...

     As a rule the woman's passion, however great, 
     must be subordinated to the man's. He must feel 
     himself the stronger and more positive of the 
     two and as controlling the situation. 

     ...

     There should be often, long, tender, restful 
     pauses -- alternations of "storm and peace," 
     as one woman happily phrased it -- and in many 
     cases the whole embrace may most helpfully be 
     very quiet. This part should be decided by the 
     woman and as she wishes it.

          -- John William Lloyd, "The Karezza Method 
          or Magnetation: The Art of Conubial Love" 
          (Privately Printed for the Author, 1931; 
          reprinted 1964 by Health Research, Mokelumne 
          Hill. California)

> >threaten to take you over the edge, stop and change positions, or
> >simply focus more attention on her.  In this regard, you should 
> >always be doing at least two different things to her - sucking on 
> >her nipples, tongue, or neck, carressing her back, kissing her 
> >ears, stroking her thighs - all of which will not only increase 
> >her enjoyment, but increase your's (by allowing you to enjoy hers) 
> >simultaniously.
> 
> so active! where is the valley?

This "by the book" approach to love-making, which requires that in an
effort to forestall the man's ejaculation, he must pay attention to each
part of the woman's body, two parts at a time, sounds more like a
self-help sex manual of the 1960s than it does like a treatise on
spiritual sexuality. ("If you feel like you're about to come, simply run
through the names of every team that has won the World Series, or do
math puzzles in your mind...")

Even John William Lloyd, obsessed though he was with the "failure" of
premature ejaculation (apparently a real problem for him when he was
young), didn't envision mechanical rote-work of this sort to avoid the
"accident." Instead, he emphasized the ultimate goal of spiritual
sexuality:

     ...translate your sex-passion as much as possible 
     into heart-passion; be sensitively alive to the 
     charm of each other's forms, tones, touch and 
     fragrances; let the thought of mutual tenderness 
     and blessing never leave you for an instant, and 
     make everything that you do and say and feel and 
     think *religious* in its purity, idealism, 
     aspiration. If you do not come nearer heaven in 
     this act and relation, than in anything else you 
     do or ever will do, you fail of perfect Karezza.

          -- [ibid.]
     
Frankly, i'd rather be loved with tender blessing by a guy who came too
soon than touched mechanically on two places at a time by a guy who was
silently reciting the Period Table of the Elements in his head to keep
from coming too soon. 

> >In the final estimate, it's like riding a fine horse:  Sure, 
> >you're just along for the ride -- but what a ride . . .
> 
> note the hierarchical nature of this relationship. but is she
> riding you, or are you riding her? how can you be 'along for the
> ride' if you refuse to be controlled or manipulated?

The blunt transactionality of defining a relaitonship in terms of roles
such as "rider" and "horse" seems to preclude perfect union, in my
opinion. Of course, there are times when such ideations prove very
wonderful -- especially when the woman is filled with the maddened
hormaonal desire for orgam during her period, or when the man is driven
to orgasmic extremity by a period of sexual abstinence -- but generally,
i have learned that fixing oneself in either the role of "rider" or
"horse" results in a lessening of conjunctive union. 

> >...Tantric masters are able to orgasm without ejaculating.  I've 
> >read that this 1) isn't good for you; and, 2) sends sperm into the 
> >bladder, where it doesn't belong (leading to the build-up of 
> >antibodies that later attack ALL sperm, rendering the man 
> >funtionally sterile - and possibly even triggering an overall 
> immune disfunction)....
> 
> I understand both these assertions to be false. the main problem in
> mystical sex practices seems to be an attempt to 'suck the vital
> juices back into one's body' using natural vacuum and muscle
> contractions. this can lead to physical problems, where unspent
> ejaculate in the main causes no problems and is eliminated with
> the urine.

I think that the true medical outcomes of BOTH practices (semen
diversion into the bladder and semen-plus-vaginal-fluids insuck) are not
well enough understood for ANY conclusions to be drawn. How many
long-range studies have been done of men who have practice these
techniques? Can you say "none"? I knew you could! 
 
> >Old deposits must also be removed, which can be accomplished by
> >daily use of lecithen, substituting olive oil for butter and fats,
> >and taking hemp seed or flax seed oil daily,  

"Old deposits" must be "removed"? Old deposits of what? Dried,
unexpelled, unejaculated semen? (I get this weird image of some guy's
bladder slowly filling up with residual rubbery plaques of yellowish,
slowly hardening semen...)


> >These will help
> >your body clean out accumulations, while also counteracting the
> >effects of small amounts of saturated fats still in your diet.
> >In short, you need to eat a largely vegetarian diet, drink pure
> >water, get lots of exercise, and plenty of rest.  If you do all
> >these things, your body will respond by performing beyond your
> >wildest dreams
> 
> dietary fads are more like placebos or religious observation
> than realistic supports beyond eating what makes one feel good.
> there may be valuable emphases here (such as fruits and veggies),
> but absolute restriction is the mark of the fanatic.

Indeed. 

cat yronwode 

Karezza and Sacred Sex ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html

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